Please find below the transcript from our conversations. I have left the timings so you can cross-reference the video finding the section you are most interested in.

00:00:09:15 – 00:00:35:19
Simon
So here I am with Mr. James Otter. We got to know each other I think beginning of this year. I came along to do a surfboard making course with with James down in Cornwall. It very much started for me because, I got my hands on a copy of your book, and I just wanted to start off by talking to you a bit about your whole sort of philosophy.

00:00:35:20 – 00:00:54:05
Simon
That connection is also in the book where you talk very much about, when you walk through a forest and you feel you brush past a leaf or a bulk of a tree, or you’re out in the surf and you feel the side of your hand behind you catching the wave, that to me, something very tactile.

00:00:54:08 – 00:00:55:16
Simon
Can you talk about that?

00:00:55:18 – 00:01:21:02
James
Yeah, I think I think in my world, especially when you’re making things, it’s impossible not to become so attuned to the way that your fingers and your hands talk to you. And I think that you then recognize where it permeates the rest of your life. Like you say, when you’re in the in the ocean, when when I’m surfing, the feel of the water in the rail of the board and and everything, it’s a very physical interaction.

00:01:21:02 – 00:01:42:16
James
And a lot of that kind of the understanding of it is then done with you through your hands, which is the same. Then once once you get into the workshop and, and when you’re making things and it’s only through your hands that you get a real sense of of what’s actually going on in front of you. You know, your eyes tell you so much, but your hands can tell you an awful lot more.

“When you’re making things and it’s only through your hands that you get a real sense of of what’s actually going on in front of you. You know, your eyes tell you so much, but your hands can tell you an awful lot more.”

00:01:42:18 – 00:02:07:13
Simon
Yeah. Because another level of this we discussed as well with this is the idea of how we need to connect head to the heart via the hands so and I was using this example actually with the with the students yesterday to talk I was doing at Falmouth University and it really is this point that until you push it into your hands, it’s not out into the real world because it’s stuck in your internal organs in a sense.

00:02:07:13 – 00:02:24:19
Simon
So you can’t push it out into the world until you make that sort of step. So this whole process then begins through the through the making process? Because it’s a very considered process, isn’t it?

00:02:24:20 – 00:02:25:13
James
Yeah.

00:02:25:13 – 00:02:28:04
Simon
You’ve got a particular structure to the way it’s done.

00:02:28:04 – 00:02:46:19
James
I mean that’s it’s  just like, you found when you came with us for the five days. I know the process inside out in terms of the structure of the way the week happens, but through that time, you’re likely to be using your hands in a way that you might not have done before, ever before, or for a very long time.

00:02:46:20 – 00:03:05:21
James
And so you start to you are using your hands to interact with this physical space in front of you and building up a picture of things. And until kind of the final day where it crescendos in this idea of it all coming together and the two that you get most familiar with over the week probably are your own hands.

00:03:05:23 – 00:03:15:01
James
Um, and I think that like whenever you think of any interaction with the physical world, almost always it is the hands first they’re going to lead everything else. Um, so.

00:03:15:01 – 00:03:33:02
Simon
If I talk a second about the tools, because that was the bit that I really sort of fell in love with, is as you realise in the course of some of the tools. So one of my favorite tools was your Japanese pull saw, which to me I just fell in love with because I’ve never used a tool like that before where it’s it’s almost like a cutting knife.

00:03:33:07 – 00:03:54:10
Simon
Then the tool works towards you, so you’re doing a pulling action. And I don’t think that’s something I’ve been used to in a tool from the West, where everything seems to be away from you. It’s the same with the planes as well, which are Japanese, which seem to be towards you too and I find that a moving experience.

00:03:54:10 – 00:04:13:10
Simon
So that that was the first part. And the second part, is the way you trusted us to just use these quite sharp tools. And there was no testing on a piece of wood. It was straight on the board itself. So why did you do that? I find that fascinating. You chose to allow us to to do so much damage.

00:04:13:11 – 00:04:13:20
Simon
Yeah.

00:04:13:23 – 00:04:37:22
James
Yeah, I think I guess that’s something for me that has evolved over the years. We’ve been running these courses for, I don’t know, 12, 13 years now. And you, you kind of learn. I limit the courses to a certain number of people so that I can always be on hand and keeping an eye on everyone. And you learn where people’s confidence is and where their skills are before it becomes hypercritical in terms of the finish that we’re looking for.

00:04:38:00 – 00:04:56:16
James
And I think the reality is, is it’s quite freeing and liberating to the people like you who’ve come in not really sure way what you’re going to be doing, to be doing everything on your board. Like you say, it’s struck you as something I don’t know, like there was a trust there, like I trusted you to do it.

00:04:56:16 – 00:05:02:14
James
And I think part of that trust. Yeah, in you, in your hands and your making can be quite powerful.

00:05:02:15 – 00:05:25:00
Simon
But it was sending trust I’m not used to through my education. So for example, I did my craft design and technology, and we did have craft back in back in my day. And then you weren’t trusted to do anything because it’s all like, don’t do this or that, you’ve got to practice on here. So for me, it was a completely different educational experience where I was trusted just to get on with it.

00:05:25:00 – 00:05:40:09
Simon
And it was almost like a mindset of, well, if you get it wrong and, you know, I caused a bit of damage on my board when I was making it and you just went I was easily corrected. And then you went into the same thing, which was like a lot because I was like, Oh, she’ll be fine. Yeah.

00:05:40:11 – 00:06:01:22
Simon
And there’s something lovely about that as well, I think is that I know that mend has been made already inside the board, but only I know that. And that to me gives me a little bit of extra joy because it makes it more personal to me. I mean, can you talk a bit about that relationship with with the material or with the board and how?

“And there’s something lovely about that as well, I think is that I know that mend has been made already inside the board, but only I know that. And that to me gives me a little bit of extra joy because it makes it more personal to me”

00:06:02:03 – 00:06:23:09
James
I think for me, what I’ve learned through having people in to make their own surfboards is that they they undoubtedly leave part of themselves in it or they imprint themselves on it. And I think it’s through those little mistakes, those little mishaps, that they they are accidental, but they make it they make the whole process and their experience even more unique.

00:06:23:11 – 00:06:52:10
James
And I think that the idea of like the idea of handmade is what you’re actually kind of talking about, really, in terms of those happy accidents or the little little kind of things that seem to go wrong but get repaired and that makes it something that is tangible and human. Yeah, I think the idea of the off the shelf object that we are so used to kind of nowadays is it follows like a machine aesthetic where everything is expected to be perfect.

00:06:52:12 – 00:07:02:16
James
And actually if there’s something a little bit wrong, you question it and think that it’s not going to be quality. But actually when you go back to making things by hand, you notice that that’s just part of the story of the making of it.

00:07:02:18 – 00:07:17:23
Simon
I mean, another thing I love with them as well is, is almost the sign off at the end where you get people to sign their names on it, which for me is a lovely sign off to make it yours. What it also does is stop this mindset of you just building something to sell on or to pass on.

00:07:17:23 – 00:07:38:17
Simon
It really then embeds it into, you know, a love of the boards when we both signed it and for me it’s a lovely relationship between the teacher and the student. And that relationship between because obviously the spring is my my kind of symbol that I’ve sort of adopted it as a as a custodian.

00:07:38:17 – 00:07:47:03
Simon
And so to have that alongside and on the board as well for me is a lovely sort of celebration of that deeper resonance with the object.

00:07:47:05 – 00:08:05:06
James
And I think that to me that’s one thing that’s really important. That’s why the I’ve kind of come to structure the week the way it is, is so that you as a maker of this would feel like it. You feel that complete ownership of it, you know. Yes. It’s got these mistakes in it. And yes, I have helped.

00:08:05:06 – 00:08:15:02
James
You know, we did make it together. But it is ultimately like you, it wouldn’t exist without you. So I think for me that’s really important that you feel that sense of ownership of it for sure.

00:08:15:03 – 00:08:36:06
Simon
I wanted to talk a little bit about the course generally, because I think obviously a lot of, you know, surfers will come here to build their next board and everything else. And I’m not a surfer, so I’ve never surfed before. I’ve done other things, but never specifically surfed. So for me it was more about the making of the board as the object and the learnings from that.

00:08:36:08 – 00:08:52:23
Simon
Yeah, and obviously I’m going to go on and learn how to surf and that’s my challenge and I have to deal with that. But for me, when I turned up here, I expected it to be about, building a surfboard. But then what I soon discovered going through the process that it was far more than that.

00:08:52:23 – 00:09:17:23
Simon
And to me, if you look at it like a business course or a learning course, it gave incredible business insights around processes, how you start with the end in mind. Showing you how you have to follow a specific plan with a board to get to the right result. So on that level, there were so many learnings, but there are also some learnings about being on a retreat somewhere you could come to and just escape from the world for four or five days.

“If you look at it like a business course or a learning course, it gave incredible business insights around processes, how you start with the end in mind. Showing how you have to follow a specific plan with a board to get to the right result. So on that level, there were so many learnings, but there are also some learnings about being on a retreat somewhere you could come to and just escape from the world for four or five days.”

00:09:18:01 –

00:09:18:01 – 00:09:44:10
Simon
But also there was mindfulness elements and the way you structured the week in terms of the staying over the meeting up, the going to different places to eat was almost like it was all part of this plan, including meeting your family, which is lovely. And my absolute favorite is Buddy the dog, the black Labrador, lying in the sawdust in the studio and following everyone around, you know, having a dog here for me was a massive part of the experience.

00:09:44:12 – 00:09:47:22
Simon
So you just want to talk about that for a minute or. Yeah, you see that?

00:09:47:22 – 00:10:03:20
James
Yeah, I think that’s it. Like you’ve kind of an animal head in that, it’s like the hook is the thing that gets you in the door because you think, Right, I want to go make a surfboard. And then when you get towards the end of the week, you kind of start to see you start to reflect on what that week has been.

00:10:03:22 – 00:10:36:15
James
And for a lot of people, it is a break from the day to day. It’s a completely submersed experience because from 9 to 5 we’re making the surf or we’re in the workshop working methodically through that kind of structure. And that can be quite liberating for people because they just following instruction and that’s sometimes quite freeing. But then at the end of the week you’ve got this physical representation of those five days, an unavoidable this is what I’ve done in five days in terms of what you’re able to achieve and, and you’re like what you might have thought your abilities were.

00:10:36:15 – 00:11:01:14
James
This is actually what you’ve been able to achieve. And I think it’s then when you get to the end of the week and you reali

se that it really wasn’t actually about the surfboard, it was it was much more on a personal kind of human level and you touch on it as well in terms of the connections that you make with the people in the space and being on the coast is unavoidable.

“This is actually what you’ve been able to achieve. And I think it’s then when you get to the end of the week and you realise that it really wasn’t actually about the surfboard, it was it was much more on a personal kind of human level and you touch on it as well in terms of the connections that you make with the people in the space and being on the coast is unavoidable.”

00:11:01:14 – 00:11:17:12
James
How raw and amazing the the weather and the and the kind of environment is. Yeah. Coupled with, like you say, that kind of the family, the friendship, the welcoming, the warmth. Yeah. That we try and make sure is is kind of nurtured within the workshop.

00:11:17:14 – 00:11:32:01
Simon
But what’s also great is doing with a couple of other people because I found that it was a shared experience and you may be doing different boards, but you all get the joy of going through this journey together. So you’ve got something to talk about. And I just found that great.

00:11:32:01 – 00:11:53:08
Simon
You meet people from a completely different walk of life. I have two completely different reasons, and that’s just really refreshing to, to, to sort of do that. Yeah, I just want to talk a moment about things from a sort of Anglepoise perspective, I suppose, because I think there’s so much synergy between what we, both do.

00:11:53:08 – 00:12:12:21
Simon
So, you know, couple of years ago we started this whole campaign around Abandon Darkness, which was, a whole movement. It wasn’t just a sort of tagline for our business, it was a way of looking at how we could change things, improve things. In the easiest way by providing light. But light is a symbol of of hope.

00:12:12:21 – 00:12:46:16
Simon
It resonates on so many so many levels. Yeah. And that’s something I think around how that manifests in materials. So I think it’s really interesting, how you use different materials. So for me I use aluminum for example and you use wood as material. So I was just really interesting to look in to that, but also looking at it from a place of something I very much now talk about, which is custodianship of my company because I’m, as you know, fifth generation and it’s going to pass hopefully on to my children and their children’s children.

00:12:46:16 – 00:13:00:03
Simon
So I feel very part of it and I don’t feel like an owner. So you also have this around, you know, stewardship and not something that comes across in your book, in your thinking about how you select the wood and do that?

00:13:00:03 – 00:13:21:01
James
Yeah, I think whenever as you’ll appreciate as like as a designer, you have every point of a product’s journey. You’ve got to consider where it’s coming from and where it’s going. And it’s the same with running a business, you know that you’ve got to look at things on a bigger scale than than the day to day.

00:13:21:03 – 00:13:42:00
James
And that’s the same when it comes down to materials. Like for me, it’s a case of, yes, you can go and buy timber from a timber merchants and you can have an idea that is relatively responsibly sourced. But to really know and understand it, for me, it’s about working with people in the Woodlands and the idea of what it means to manage land.

00:13:42:02 – 00:13:57:03
James
And the minute you’re talking about wood, trees grow on a time scale equivalent to our lives, so it suddenly makes the picture much bigger and wider than the idea of just taking something from over the counter in a store for wood.

“And the minute you’re talking about wood, trees grow on a time scale equivalent to our lives, so it suddenly makes the picture much bigger and wider than the idea of just taking something from over the counter in a store for wood.”

00:13:57:05 – 00:14:18:16
Simon
So don’t touch the bit because another part we have is all to me as that sort of custodianship is about the long view. So a lot of my thinking and design process and the reason why we look after and mend products is because of their longevity and thinking about, you know, future generations and children and children’s children. Because to me, you know, we have to be responsible to think about that.

00:14:18:16 – 00:14:31:04
Simon
And I think that’s obviously very tied in to the story of a tree, which just works in that long way. You know, things happen much slower and things like that. Yeah. So how how do you think about that?

00:14:31:09 – 00:14:58:23
James
Yeah, I think for me it’s about supporting the people who are who I trust and managing woodland in a really responsible and in a rich regenerative sense. So it’s going beyond the idea of sustainable where you can, you know, you can do the same thing every day in perpetuity to something that actually is giving back and and reestablishing the biodiverse and healthy environment that we need to be doing for future generations.

00:14:59:01 – 00:15:19:15
James
So that for me is when we look at to look at the timber in the materials. It’s a case of supporting and finding the people that are doing that. Um, and yeah, then, then when it comes into the designing of things, much like you’ve touched on your thinking along the lines of okay, what’s the, what’s the relative lifespan of this and how do we continue to repair it?

00:15:19:15 – 00:15:46:16
James
And I think that’s something I’ve come to learn over the years. I set out with this idea of making a product that was as sustainable or as low impact as I possibly could. So it was a case of juggling, using some materials to increase the longevity. We’re all using some that are completely biodegradable. So it’s a balance between those two things coupled with, okay, what do we do at the end of the the ten years of reasonable use or the 20 years What happens then?

00:15:46:18 – 00:16:05:13
James
And I’ve kind of come to learn like the reality is when we have customers who come in, if they’re bored or they’ve damaged them through use, we can repair them. And I think that you’ve touched on that. The idea of repair is is huge. Like, I love to think of our bodies being infinitely repairable because ultimately every piece can be.

00:16:05:15 – 00:16:25:02
Simon
Yeah, I think that’s really interesting to me because I’ve, I love this idea of repair. It sort of increases the story of the object you have. So, you know, it’s just like the lamp I have here. That was a lamp sent back to us and you’ll see it’s got a yellow arm. You know what I wanted to do with mend the arm with something different to celebrate them.

00:16:25:02 – 00:16:43:10
Simon
And so that’s a very sort of kintsugi sort or Japanese thing. And I think there’s something really interesting about how that storytelling works. And then you feel more connected to the object because every time you take it or do something, you remember a part in your life or a stage in your life through it. A day in your life for good or for bad.

“And so that’s a very sort of kintsugi or Japanese thing. And I think there’s something really interesting about how that storytelling works. And then you feel more connected to the object because every time you take it or do something, you remember a part in your life or a stage in your life through it. A day in your life for good or for bad.”

00:16:43:10 – 00:16:47:11
Simon
But it’s just all part of your personal journey. Yeah.

00:16:47:13 – 00:17:01:10
James
Yeah. And that’s the same with exactly the same with us. Like when when people are repairing or we need to do repairs. Often it’s a conversation of do you want it to look like it never happened? Or do you want us to celebrate the fact that it has happened and replace it with a contrasting piece of wood or something?

00:17:01:10 – 00:17:04:10
James
And yeah, it’s is always an interesting conversation.

00:17:04:12 – 00:17:20:18
Simon
Well, I like dents, so you should see with dents in my car, which you probably know about, and they will tell a different story. Yeah, I love that. Yeah. You talk about the, the Anglepoise you have because I love the fact I came in and you had, one of one of our lamps in the studio.

00:17:20:18 – 00:17:21:00
Simon
So.

00:17:21:00 – 00:17:45:14
James
Yeah, yeah. It’s funny when, yeah, when I remember when I think when you first emailed, I was piecing it together and because I think your ear embodies angle points isn’t as an angle and it rang a bell because of design and stuff. I studied through design stuff and then and yeah and, and a few years before had been given by a friend one of your, one of your older lamps that was, that was his granddad’s and, and it just been stood up upstairs.

00:17:45:14 – 00:18:01:14
James
Ultimately it lights the sink for when we wash washing up in the winter and there’s no lights around. Um yeah but it’s a lovely object and I think then obviously having known you and started to understand more about the mechanism in the springs, you kind of, Yeah. Realise how special they are.

00:18:01:17 – 00:18:26:20
Simon
I love that kind of story because what we find a lot with all sorts of Anglepoise owners, what they do is have lots of different lamps for different generations. So the product will start life in the living room or the pride of place in this office space. And gradually as another one comes along, they get sort of moved down a tier into the workshop or lighting the corner of the space, it may eventually end up in the loft or something forgotten.

00:18:26:20 – 00:18:41:13
Simon
And then people like maybe a fifth generation or a child discovers it and goes, Oh, can I get that repaired? And that I love those kind of stories that pass through the generations. And it’s lovely to see an object that just endures. Yeah.

00:18:41:15 – 00:19:00:19
James
And I guess that’s like you touched on with the the longevity of your of your family owned business for five generations. Like you’re going to because you’ve always made products to last. You’re going to be experiencing things that have been around for a long time. And I think that’s quite special isn’t it, to understand that relationship between objects for sure.

00:19:00:21 – 00:19:20:11
Simon
James I just wanted to reflect a moment on, you know, the experience of coming back here today because of stopping for a period of of making. And now the board has gone off and been, you know, glassed and  finished. So this is the first time I’ve seen the finished article. So there’s that moment of of expectation and it’s a lovely thing to do.

00:19:20:11 – 00:19:49:05
Simon
And I feel incredibly proud of what I’m seeing here it’s just a joy to see something looking so beautiful, but it’s also a reflection of us. I think it’s an Anglepoise thing, you know, having that long term relationship with the customer is so important. It’s almost like when if something does go wrong, in some ways it’s an opportunity to reconnect with the customer and it’s almost a privilege and a joy to get to sort out a problem or something that doesn’t work.

“Having that long term relationship with the customer is so important. It’s almost like when if something does go wrong, in some ways it’s an opportunity to reconnect with the customer and it’s almost a privilege and a joy to get to sort out a problem or something that doesn’t work.”

00:19:49:05 – 00:20:13:15
Simon
And then you hope they will, you know, potentially have a longer term relationship with you. And that’s what I feel like coming back here. It it isn’t just about the board. It’s about the relationship and  we’ve become sort of friends for life through this action and that that’s that’s a lovely kind of interaction or interface by being brought together through an object that has enabled that journey for us too, I guess.

00:20:13:18 – 00:20:32:16
James
Yeah, that’s it. It’s that, that shared experience of the week. I think I hadn’t realised how memorable they were until then. A couple of years ago, me and my wife were sitting there and I think we’d got to ten years or something and I must have more than that been together. And she’d kind of pinned at the year’s on the wall, and I could tell her the month and who came on every workshop.

“I hadn’t realised how memorable they were until then. A couple of years ago, me and my wife were sitting there and I think we’d got to ten years or something and I must have more than that been together. And she’d kind of pinned at the year’s on the wall, and I could tell her the month and who came on every workshop.”

00:20:32:16 – 00:20:58:19
James
But I couldn’t tell her which year we went on holiday somewhere. Because for me, those memories are so strong. So the hope is that they’re just as strong for you as well as a maker, that it’s just quite an intense experience. So to continue that relationship, yeah, is, is something that I treasure as well. And I do often wonder what it’s like when, when you come back because like you say, the finish is applied separately of we do all the woodwork in the week so you leave the board in a different state to where it is now.

00:20:58:19 – 00:21:05:04
James
And it’s it’s one does it feel familiar and and you’re like it’s yours still.

00:21:05:06 – 00:21:33:02
Simon
It’s well it’s almost I think you go for a bit of a sense of wow I was involved in making and that can be useful is and it’s it makes you have an incredible sense of achievement and the sense that you do have the potential ability to do things. And again, it takes me back to reminding us that we have these hands and we should be using the activities that connect us to the world around us, rather than using them to swipe screens all the time, because that is not connecting us to anything.

00:21:33:02 – 00:21:58:07
Simon
It’s it’s alienating us. So and now I hope this becomes an object I can take out into the field and take into the water and actually reconnect me with the world around me to appreciate its material quality. Appreciate water, which was one of the things needed to grow the wood in the first place. So it helps you teach you about all the sort of interconnectedness of things, I suppose.

00:21:58:10 – 00:22:15:09
James
Yeah, Yeah, for sure. That’s just it. You’re now, you know, this is just the start of, of your journey with yourself. But it’s, it’s, it’s incredible to think where this board and all the boats have made to this point. I kind of have been in the ocean and, and, and with people in those environments, it’s it’s pretty special.

00:22:15:09 – 00:22:40:16
James
In fact you remind me actually, and part of what you said about the shared experience of making a board early, early on, a few of the workshops would only have one person on so they wouldn’t have that shared kind of got over the fence, you know, how are you getting on kind of a feeling or experience. So every year we, we invite all our workshop is back together to kind of to connect together and go catch some waves and have a meal together.

00:22:40:16 – 00:22:52:22
James
And that’s always such a lovely space because no one really knows anyone. And then they suddenly realise they’ve got this, this beautiful thing in common that they’ve all been through. And and suddenly they’re like, they’re friends or immediate friends.

00:22:52:22 – 00:23:12:19
Simon
It’s what you brought together through a process, through a common interest through and friendships form formed through that. And I think that’s lovely that that’s happened. And I can’t think, you know, many of the things people do that happens is seen as an act. When you go and buy a toaster or something, you become part of a group, you meet up to talk about it.

00:23:12:21 – 00:23:26:20
Simon
Well maybe we should do that, but it would be a bit ridiculous. Yeah, it might. Doesn’t make me saying that. How we could we do that with Anglepoise because it’s this lovely just people coming together and sharing stories.

00:23:26:20 – 00:23:36:07
James
It’s a sharing of time, isn’t it, together. I think that’s the thing. It’s it’s not transactional in the same way that purchasing a normal surfboard might be.

00:23:36:09 – 00:23:52:20
Simon
But that’s interesting, isn’t it? Because about time, because it was someone telling me, you know, everyone will fight about, you know, getting 10% off or 5% off this and spend all this money getting the cheapest and the discount when the point is. But no one will do that with their time. You know, time is almost just given no thought.

00:23:52:20 – 00:24:06:08
Simon
But the whole point is time is finite. You can’t get time back, but you can always make more money. So for me, it’s a fascinating thing of how we value the things we do in life. Yeah.

“But the whole point is time is finite. You can’t get time back, but you can always make more money. So for me, it’s a fascinating thing of how we value the things we do in life.”

00:24:06:09 – 00:24:13:22
James
Yeah, yeah. Time is is the only thing we, we all have to trade, isn’t it. Yeah. And we don’t know how much we got. Yeah.

00:24:14:00 – 00:24:18:07
Simon
So that’s why I need to get out and get to get on the surf and just do it!

00:00:09:05 – 00:00:17:13
Simon
So today, I’m thrilled to be joined by a long friend of mine, actually, which is Sir Kenneth Grange.

00:00:17:13 – 00:00:27:04
Simon
how long we known each other now? Kenneth? I think it’s 21 years. I think we first. I think it must be. I’m not a bit surprised. It’s a long time. Yeah,

00:00:27:04 – 00:00:29:04
Simon
I hadn’t started at Anglepoise very long.

00:00:29:05 – 00:00:41:17
Simon
Actually, I think I was very, very new to the business, very new to the game. And, things came about because I was reading an article in our archive, which was about,

00:00:41:17 – 00:00:50:14
Simon
what’s your favorite design of all time sort of article in the style outsider. I think it was in The Guardian. And the name came up and it was Kenneth Grange.

00:00:50:15 – 00:01:13:23
Simon
And I remember you talking about balance being a quality in life. We don’t talk about or value as we should, and timeless design appeals to young and old and things like that. And it was one of those magic moments where the hairs stand up on the back of your neck and you think, I’ve got I’ve got to meet this person and, understandvwhat he means by those things.

00:01:13:23 – 00:01:21:12
Simon
And and here we are. And 21 years on, we’re sitting here together and that’s fantastic.

00:01:21:12 – 00:01:45:00
Kenneth
Simon. I, I think I’d like to talk about the first time I met you, and its a very fond memory and it was a very in a way, on reflection, a very, very important set of circumstances that in those few minutes

00:01:45:00 – 00:01:53:08
Kenneth
there I was sitting next to the man who was a direct part of that old, old family and springs.

00:01:53:10 – 00:02:22:09
Kenneth
Even then, all I could see were such a key part of life still today, it’s 2024 most people out there, have no idea of the importance of springs in their life. They get into their motorcar and it’s 30 or 40 springs at work the moment they open the door. Even opening the door probably involves a spring. So a terrific institution, the spring world.

” It’s 2024 most people out there, have no idea of the importance of springs in their life. They get into their motorcar and it’s 30 or 40 springs at work the moment they open the door. Even opening the door probably involves a spring. So a terrific institution, the spring world.”

00:02:22:11 – 00:02:53:10
Kenneth
And here I was sitting next to a direct descendant of the great Terry business. So you started at the absolute head start of everybody I would of wish to have sat next to and we whether you wanted it or not, I gave you a long dose of my admiration and my my reference via the spring factory to your origins.

00:02:53:12 – 00:03:04:21
Kenneth
And then that led eventually to us working together. And frankly, Simon, it’s been a pleasure all the time.

00:03:04:21 – 00:03:21:06
Simon
I mean, it’s lovely. You mentioned the springs because it’s something that’s obviously very important to me. So much so I always, always carry spring with me and for me, this spring has become special as it connects me to my ancestors.

00:03:21:06 – 00:03:51:22
Simon
So this spring becomes a bit of a ritual for me that actually I’ve started doing so that every time I leave the house, I actually feel this spring and the tension this spring  has. Just to have a moment when I can reconnect myself with my great grandfather and those that went before me. So, yeah, it’s funny you say not many people think about springs, but for me, I never underestimate the importance of this spring and where I’ve come from, and I think it’s a fascinating thing about springs.

00:03:51:22 – 00:04:15:09
Simon
As you say, they’re everywhere without us realising in many ways. And also the spring has often today been replaced by the chip or by electronics. So, the spring is a fascinating item and in its purest form, the paperclip for me is probably one of the most incredibly simple and beautiful springs. It’s just a very simple device.

“The spring is a fascinating item and in it’s purest form, the paperclip for me is probably one of the most incredibly simple and beautiful springs. It’s just a very simple device.”

00:04:15:10 – 00:04:43:20
Simon & Kenneth
Ours are actually quite complicated, constant tensioning springs and quite hard to make. But the spring is is people’s lives depend on the spring. You’re seeing how many airplanes there are at this very moment up there in the sky. And you can be very sure the springs at work in that giant machine. And yet and so sooner or later, everything in life has something to do with a spring.

00:04:43:20 – 00:05:19:16
Kenneth
It is hard to imagine. That’s not an exaggeration. But the fact of the matter is it’s truth. It’s like it’s similar to somebody describing that you own the screw business. Yeah. The vast, vast variety of screws. But there’s a vast, vast variety of springs. So these two elementary pieces of, of engineering of industrial production across the world, no matter what the what the place is, what the people know, what the circumstances are.

00:05:19:18 – 00:05:24:00
Kenneth
Nobody gets through life without a spring.

00:05:24:00 – 00:05:40:05
Simon
The reason why we started work together was because I think you are somebody who has the ability to understand what a product does. So whether it’s a taxi, a train or a food mixer, you’re able to make that product more useful, more usable.

” The reason why we started work together was because I think you are somebody who has the ability to understand what a product does. So whether it’s a taxi, a train or a food mixer, you’re able to make that product more useful, more usable.”

00:05:40:07 – 00:06:00:05
Simon
And for me, you very much have a philosophy where, if it’s a pleasure to use, something will have more value in the world. And I think that’s something that couldn’t be more true today because we live in a land of products that don’t really solve a problem in many, many ways. So if you look at, a product like the type three, what was the sort of thinking?

00:06:00:07 – 00:06:19:18
Simon
Because there’s a lot of beautiful details in there for me that I think you introduced. And it was a kind of and another point you really got us to think about, I think was the idea with the product where the springs are, it’s the engine of the product and you know, you can relate it to motor cars or different objects, but it all comes back to celebrating that engine.

00:06:19:18 – 00:07:02:16
Kenneth
And I think that’s what you did. I think that that’s a very good description. I think it is this modest little, little assembly of parts is in fact the heart of the product. Really. It is the engine, as you say. And I remember setting about your product, which at the time you were making, because as a canvas on which to then work or stage on which obviously did go to perform, as it were, the target of my endeavors was whether it could be improved functionally

00:07:03:15 – 00:07:20:11
Simon
But I mean, I think the two features to me obviously the engine we’ve talked about, which is the spring mechanism, has a beautiful proportionality to it. I think the way we moved the springs inside the tubes and it became clear we learned a lot from the Type three, I think we bought into that mechanism.

00:07:20:13 – 00:07:40:06
Simon
But I think what has also come out being so great about the mechanism is it’s so easy to repair. So what I love, the fact is, 20 years old now, people are starting to buy spares for these products because maybe they’ve used them in a really rusty environment or something’s become lost because over 20 years of heavy usage that can happen.

00:07:40:06 – 00:08:16:23
Simon & Kenneth
So these are becoming now repaired, loved things, just like products we have, they’re up to 90 years old, so I’m not interrupting you there. This is a favorite topic of mine. The question of sometimes just the good fortune of being part of a team that makes a product that history then unfolds and shows to have been a set of decisions a set of engineering decisions that happily go to make the longevity of not only the product but the company.

00:08:17:01 – 00:09:02:10
Kenneth
And the train that I worked on for British Rail is a good example. And another remarkable example this kid, one is Kenwood, where I designed or redesigned a product of his and by a set of circumstances, some of which are not to do with me, but it was in a degree over engineered, over well made. But the marvelous thing is that subsequently and this is what commerce does, of course, it hands on products from one company to another and in the successive variety of ownerships of the company we call Kenwood, of all of them a benefitted from the fact that it is it’s almost indestructible the damn thing

00:09:02:14 – 00:09:28:00
Kenneth
And so people have come to regard it . I promise you there are more Kenwood Chefs have been handed down through families than you’d have hot dinners.

00:09:28:00 – 00:09:50:02
Simon & Kenneth
And I remember because my uncle’s Kenwood chef broke a while ago and you came to visit them and said, I need a particular part. And then I think it was two years later, I think you finally found the right part and sent it to them. And they were just blown away by that because it’s just an incredible that’s a very important component in the product. But I think generally this way of thinking is, you know, built in obsolescence is at the core of most products made and to me, companies are doing themselves a disservice. It’s insulting to to customers who are treated like consumers.

00:09:50:02 – 00:10:09:11
Simon
And the idea is to consume and then throw away. But for me, ever since I’ve been Anglepoise and my whole philosophy has been, you know, no product should be designed or destined for landfill. It’s just morally wrong. And I literally cry when I see some of our lamps down the tip, you know, they’re called recycling centers.

“Ever since I’ve been at Anglepoise my whole philosophy has been, no product should be designed or destined for landfill. It’s just morally wrong. And I literally cry when I see some of our lamps down the tip”

 

00:10:09:11 – 00:10:40:07
Simon
But fundamentally, a lot of it is a tip, I almost cry when I see this just pointless needless waste of material when all it requires is a bit of love to bring it back and to make it usable product and useful thing. Because in a world of, you know, recycling and all the rest of it, recycling is not going to solve the problems of the world only using the things we make for longer and making the building longevity into our products and the way we live is the only future we can really have as human beings.

00:10:40:10 – 00:11:14:12
Kenneth
And, you know, Simon interrupting at the heart of this is actually detail. The heart of it is actually the minutest concern about the smallest part. And it’s appropriateness. It’s it’s economics. Yeah. And it’s fitting together. So it’s like an ideal jigsaw puzzle. You get all those little bits, they fit one another. And so I’m slightly obsessed and I think I’m not ashamed of the fact that I am obsessed by detail.

“At the heart of this is actually detail. The heart of it is actually the minutest concern about the smallest part. And it’s appropriateness. It’s economics. And it’s fitting together. So it’s like an ideal jigsaw puzzle. You get all those little bits, they fit one another. And so I’m slightly obsessed and I think I’m not ashamed of the fact that I am obsessed by detail.”

 

00:11:14:18 – 00:11:41:15
Simon
Yeah. And I think for me, what’s been lovely about these products, they all fit with, you know, the line we now use, which is Abandon Darkness at Anglepoise. Which is to me all about that thing of being responsible in the world, in the way we behave, in the way we produce and the way we work in the world around us, and not just for our customers, but hopefully as well by the philosophies and the attitude we have that can infiltrate other businesses.

00:11:41:19 – 00:12:13:12
Kenneth
Because if you live if you live with an excellent product day on day, and it is what you will come and what you expect, not only in that thing, in that product and in that moment of what you expect them to be associated with. And, you know, if other things you interface with on your table or in your kitchen or wherever, and if they failed in that, then it’s sort of undermining the basic philosophy.

00:12:13:12 – 00:12:14:01
Simon
Yeah,

00:12:14:21 – 00:12:35:05
Simon
And it’s it’s been fascinating, isn’t it, because we’ve worked together for so long that actually the start of the process, it was bulbs that were very light. They got very hot. Yeah. We then went through a period for compact fluorescents where actually a difficult period for was very heavy and you know, not the nicest light output in many ways.

00:12:35:05 – 00:12:55:21
Simon
And now we end up all the way back in an LED world, which kind of went for a period of being very heavy. But actually we’ve ended up with a weight now where it’s in many bulbs not so dissimilar to the incandescent bulb. And the fascinating thing for me there in bulbs is for every normal lighting product, the weight of the bulb has no consequence whatsoever.

00:12:55:21 – 00:13:24:03
Simon
Absolutely. Light bulbs on their boxes don’t have the weights of the bulbs are essential to us in an Anglepoise mechanism. When balance is critical, the weight is absolutely critical. Sure. So it’s quite interesting, you know, how we dealt with that. And I know in the type three, you dealt with that variation by having adjustable spring caps. So they had these beautiful little dials, which we did on some of our older products, the 1930s.

00:13:24:03 – 00:13:48:22
Simon & Kenneth
But it allows you to change the sort of free length of the spring. And that was one of the most beautiful details that really Yeah, I loved on that product. No, I agree. It’s like having an engine that you’re able to tune yourself. And I know this, you know, fancy, fancy firms, fancy endeavors to tune up the engine of a motorcar.

00:13:49:00 – 00:14:09:07
Kenneth
But we’re talking about adjusting. The tuning is a nicer description of our little engine, which is the heart of the product which are these springs. But it’s a nice thought that, isn’t it. Because, you know, there’s practical uses of that, if you like, on a turntable or something. We have to adjust the weight of the cartridge or the head.

00:14:09:09 – 00:14:31:22
Simon
But actually for the longevity of the product, how do you know what the light source is going to be over ten, 15, 20, 100 years? How do you know how dust or the change in materiality over time? The natural patina over time, how that’s going to change the product? So by sort of building in these components, you’re making a adjustability key.

00:14:32:00 – 00:14:51:11
Simon
And also I think that builds a natural connection between you, the user and the product. And when you increase that emotional connection, it means you grow a relationship with your product. That means you are less likely to throw it away or want to cast it away. You more likely to hand it over to a future generation.

“When you increase that emotional connection, it means you grow a relationship with your product. That means you are less likely to throw it away or want to cast it away. You more likely to hand it over to a future generation.”

00:14:51:11 – 00:15:20:13
Simon & Kenneth
So for me, it’s such a beautiful example of building in sort of empathy and love in a product. Well, that’s interesting, Simon, because I think it opens up the discussion about the advent of more and more mechanisms, more and more devices, and to take over our human adjustment of things. I think, you know, we grow up with the luxury of adjusting.

00:15:20:14 – 00:15:47:08
Kenneth
You throw off a blanket if it’s too warm in bed or you change or whatever, you change your clothes and so on. And of course there’s a great deal of talk today about AI the impact of of all these decisions being taken from us. But there will be a lot of decisions left which are absolutely still. And I would want them to be forever in the hands of the owner.

00:15:48:10 – 00:16:10:07
Simon
because it’s also at a level of connectivity in the world. And, you know, if you look at the toaster example that you’re comparing, you know, a mechanism with the quality of toast, with a dial, So with within all those things as a human, it’s allowing you to have decisions, it’s allowing you to think, it’s actually allowing you to use your brain and you get a sense and a feel for how these different

00:16:10:07 – 00:16:29:16
Simon
things interact, which I think can only go to help you in life because if everything is automated, then we as humans are not connecting to the world in our hands and we’re not using our hands. We’re not connecting the head to the heart, which we use the hands, because those we just exist in a virtual world.

00:16:29:16 – 00:16:56:21
Kenneth
Simon I couldn’t agree more. These tactile engagements. Are what make us human? Yes. Yes. I think, you know, if we if we were to rely upon, for example, the use of voice commands to take over from physical commands and therefore judgments, that’s a pretty bleak future up to a point where in 500 years time we won’t have arms, we certainly won’t have the need for fingers.

“These tactile engagements. Are what make us human? If we were to rely upon, for example, the use of voice commands to take over from physical commands and therefore judgments, that’s a pretty bleak future up to a point where in 500 years time we won’t have arms, we certainly won’t have the need for fingers.”

00:16:58:02 – 00:17:20:01
Simon
Can I just talk for 30 seconds on your book. For the book, Kenneth, I’m just so honored and so privileged to see that the Type 75 is the first product on the front cover, when I saw it, I was just like, Wow, that’s just amazing. Well, what does that mean to you?

00:17:20:01 – 00:17:44:05
Kenneth & Simon
Well, it means that it’s one of a one of a few examples of a lifetime’s work. I mean, I’ve had a lot of good fortune and your one of my fortunes. It’s lovely. Kenneth, thank you very much for your time. It’s been a pleasure. Right Adam. We’re done.